A Few Newbie Questions

[ScottF]

Hi, I've been fascinated with telescopes and viewing the heavens ever since I saw Saturn through a scope back when I was a kid. I'm retired now and have been thinking of finally getting into telescopes. A close friend in Florida sends me photos that a friend of his takes, and they are awe inspiring. I have a few newbie questions please.

1. Like many hobbies, there is often a certain level of equipment performance to get good results. I know that generally bigger is better, but what would you experts consider a good telescope size to start out with. I think an 8" mirror is a good minimum. I wouldn't want to get into the situation, which we all have, where after a week with something, you realize you should have gotten something better...

2. I like the features of the Catadioptric telescopes, along with the computer guidance and tracking systems. Would you consider this a great start?

3. Does anyone here view from their house in the cities? I live near White Bear Lake, so there is plenty of light around. I can't imagine there is much to see from the house, and all viewing has to be done out in the country. My in-laws farm will be perfect but they are 3 hours from here. Where do you go for viewing?

4. I suppose this is an odd question, but how do you deal with mosquitos? I would imagine it being very annoying get bit or having skeeters buzzing around your head while trying view. Do you ever put a netting tent or something like that with the scope poking out?

Thanks. Scott

[SEmert]

Hi Scott, I'm in White Bear Lake too and I do some observing from my backyard, but honestly not all that much. I'm south of the lake and just east of White Bear Avenue, so the lights from the Hwy 61 car dealers are to my southwest and west, so I don't try observing those directions very much. I view more to the north and east from here. Having said that, I have seen M81/M82 from my driveway with a 6" scope, can pretty easily see the Double Cluster, M45, M31, M42 in the winter, M57 and M13 and M92 in the summer, stuff like that. I've occasionally plunked down in the middle of some of the city parks in WBL and done some observing. Bossard Park is fairly well protected, and there is a nice dead-end stub off Prairie Road you can park your car. If you're good with suburban light pollution but on the less oppressive side, Metcalf Field and Joseph J. Casby Observatory in Afton are good, and only 20 minutes away. If you want darker skies but relatively close, you can use Cherry Grove Observatory (about 1 hour from WBL) or perhaps find a spot in William O'Brien State Park.

On the telescope to buy, I first recommend attending some star parties and get a feel for scopes by looking at and through other members' scopes, and talking to them. Also, borrow a couple different ones from the MAS Loaner Program before you buy. I have both a computerized Cat (C8 on AVX GEQ mount) and a manual Dob (12.5" truss Dob). I used to do only star hopping, but between skies that seem like they are less transparent than a couple decades ago and deteriorating eyes, I've learned to like computerized scopes much more, even though with the crutch of a go-to scope, you learn the sky less.

A scope series that I have begun to really like, especially for starting out, is the Celestron StarSense Explorer series. These use an app on your smart phone as a computerized finder, and it works very well. Don't buy the lowest ones though. The lowest-end ones have small aperture and are plagued with the typical shaky lightweight mount. They now have 8", 10" and 12" Dobs as well as several tripod-based ones, the 130AZ (130mm - 5" Newtonian reflector), 102AZ (102mm - 4" refractor), and even a 5" SCT. I de-forked a C5 OTA from an old NexStar 5se whose mount no longer worked, put a dovetail on it and a bracket for the StarSense phone adapter, and it works well. It's nice that once you align the phone to the scope, it's just a finder, so you can pick it up and move it around your back yard to view parts of the sky otherwise blocked by trees. With the typical computerized SCT like my C8/AVX and the NexStar series, you have to do a two-star alignment and once that is done, you are stuck in one place. Also, with computerized scopes with a hand pad control, you must slew the scope using the motors. With a Dob or anything with the StarSense, if you know an object is just a little ways from where your scope is pointing, you can just push it over to it.

Mosquitos. It's a good thing were past that season for this year! Fortunately at most places, usually they are only a bother for the first hour or so after sunset then they seem to go away. Dealing with them is the typical advice - mosquito repellent (be sure to be far away from scopes when applying it), or even a Bug Shirt if you're going somewhere where they are omnipresent. ELO can have quite a few, CGO doesn't have any open water nearby so there aren't that many, Metcalf isn't too bad. I've never tried a full netting tent with the scope poking out. Rather, the Bug Shirt which has a zippered face and I can open the zipper just a little to get at the eyepiece.

Take a look back through the MAS YouTube channel and there are some recorded B-SIG meetings on some of these subjects you can look at.

[ddn]

Hi Scott. From your post I take that you are interested in observation rather than imaging. They require different equipment. Also be aware that what you see in the eyepiece is different than what the camera will see. Where the pictures are clear with lots of details, you will probably see a smudge.

I suggest that you not buy any equipment at this point, but rather watch others using their equipment, ask lots of questions, and borrow telescopes from MAS. Here is a link to the request page for telescopes https://www.mnastro.org/membership/scope-program/.

Another option is to be trained on telescopes at the observatories. Once you are a keyholder you can reserve a telescope for an evening and observe to your heart's content.

If you want to do imaging, there are also some imaging rigs that you can use once you have completed training.

I have mostly done imaging. This year I purchased a Celestron StarSense Explorer 10" DOB. It includes a code for a smartphone app to help locate objects. It doesn't work with all smartphones. Check the Celestron web sites for compatibility. It works pretty good for locating objects and the 10" gathers lots of light.

Good Luck.

Doug Neverman

[FF2Rydia]

Hi Scott,

For the answers to 1 and 2, we do need to know what you are planning on doing, visual observing or astrophotography, as that will have a great effect on the answer.

For 3, yes, people will view from their homes, as there are things that the light has a minimal impact on. The moon and planets can be viewed anywhere (and the sun, for that matter). The Astronomical League has an observing program that is specifically designed to be completed from urban areas where the Milky Way is not visible (The Urban Observing Program), as well as three Lunar programs, three solar programs, and two programs for planets (Mars and Jupiter). Double star observing may also be possible, as many double stars are visible even in light pollution, and the usual issue with observing double stars is the ability to split them. As for where to go for things that need darker skies, the first places many of us consider are the MAS observing sites (Metcalf, JJ Casby, ELO, Cherry Grove, and LLCC), although you will sometimes see other places, such as Crex Meadows in Wisconsin, mentioned. The darker the skies you desire, the further you need to go, and your in-laws farm probably will be similar, a good choice when you need really dark skies.

4 is not an odd question, as it is a definite issue (that's reportedly one of the drawbacks to Crex Meadows), and you will get almost as many answers as people you ask. Although a common brand that you'll find mentioned is Thermo Cell (Therma Cell?).

[ScottF]

Many thanks Steve, Doug, and Kris for your very detailed and informative replies! I'm still reading and rereading your posts as there is a lot of information covered here. I will address a few of the comments. Once every so many years I would buy a Sky and Telescope magazine off the rack, and read it. So I at least know to point the telescope up...

I'm checking to see if I can attend the Star Party on Nov 4 at Eagle Lake. Agreed, that would be a good start to the hobby and the MAS. Is that event happening for sure? I'd hate to drive down and find it's canceled

I would be very pleased to join the MAS and utilize their generous loaner program as a way to get some first hand experience with different kinds of telescopes. I see there is an 8" Schmitt Cassegrain that is especially intriguing as that type of scope is something that I thought would work out good for my situation.

Good to hear that I can see "some things" from the house. I am on the south east shore of White Bear Lake, close to Mahtomedi, so I don't have the lights from HWY 61 car dealerships to contend with. I've been thinking about friends or friends of friends that live east of me, out on the country in Grant or are Elmo. Perhaps I can get permission to set up in their yard one night.

I think there is going to be a steep equipment and optics learning curve here, it worries me a little bit, and it would sure be convenient to work on that curve just outside the house, especially in this starting phase.

I think I'd like to start observing first, and maybe after getting all excited, venture into photography. So yes, observing first, but Dougs comment has me worried. "Also be aware that what you see in the eyepiece is different than what the camera will see. Where the pictures are clear with lots of details, you will probably see a smudge". I see those beautiful photos of Saturn and the other planets in the star gazing magazines, and I'm hoping to see them with my own eye, but am I going to be disappointed with seeing just a blur or a faint smudge? So, for casual photography, an 8" or 10" Schmitt Cassegrain can't be used?

I've never heard of the Astronomical League or their observing programs, so I've been checking out their webpage. Wow, that is a pretty interesting program.

I'm aware of Dobsonian scopes. I remember them being called "light buckets", but my memory of them are of home made scopes with plywood sides. That Celestron Starsense Explorer 10" dob far better than those homemade ones, especially with that cool cellphone position system. Wow.

The BugShirt looks like a good solution to keep the skeeters away from my face and ears. I've never heard of them before.

I will mention that I bought an Edmund Scientific 6" mirror grinding kit back in 1975. I never built it, and hung on to it until about 10 years ago. So I sort of owned a scope once.

Thanks again Steve, Doug, and Kris for your great advice. Scott

[ddn]

Scott, regarding the "smudge" statement. This is really in reference to nebulae and not planets. Observation of planets, particularly Mars, Jupiter, and Saturn can be quite satisfying.

Doug N.

[SEmert]

Scott, regarding the "smudge" statement. This is really in reference to nebulae and not planets. Observation of planets, particularly Mars, Jupiter, and Saturn can be quite satisfying.

And other deep sky objects (open clusters, globular clusters, double stars, carbon stars) aren't generally resolved as smudges, but as bright individual stars or groups of stars (mostly, anyway). Besides, a lot of the satisfaction in observing these "smudges" is the wonder in realizing that light has traveled trillions of miles and thousands to millions of years directly to reach your telescope and your eye, in knowing what that smudge actually is, and in looking at it for an extended period to dig out some of the details in the object.

There is nothing wrong with a 6- to 8-inch scope for your first one. Quite often an 8" scope can serve for an entire amateur astronomer's observing "career".

[ScottF]

Thanks Doug and Steve for the "smudge" comments... I'm just trying to get an idea of what to expect from live viewing. I've started to look online at real time viewing vs the results of photography and post processing. I think I'm just getting ahead of myself. I'll just slow down, do the Nov 4 sky party, and start out from there with small steps. Thanks, Scott

[FF2Rydia]

I'm checking to see if I can attend the Star Party on Nov 4 at Eagle Lake. Agreed, that would be a good start to the hobby and the MAS. Is that event happening for sure? I'd hate to drive down and find it's canceled

Any ELO events that are listed as Public Night or Public Star Party (like the one on Nov 4 is) are rain or shine events that are only cancelled in the event of severe weather.

As for learning curve, stay away from equatorial mounts for now, as those are the worst for learning curve. With a Dob, the learning curve is less equipment and optics and more just learning the sky so that you can find your targets, although one with electronics will have that learning curve. A regular Alt-Az mount is somewhere in the middle. In addition to doing things on your own, bringing your equipment to the Beginners SIG events at Metcalf and/or the ELO Public Star Parties are an excellent way to get this experience.

As for Astronomical League observing programs that are good to start with, both the Universe Sampler and the Beyond Polaris programs are excellent for beginners, providing a broad taste of observing. I know that at least one of the AL Master Observers that the MAS has produced started with the Universe Sampler (Beyond Polaris didn't yet exist for the one I'm thinking of).

There is nothing wrong with a 6- to 8-inch scope for your first one. Quite often an 8" scope can serve for an entire amateur astronomer's observing "career".

I still have a 4.5 inch Dob as my primary personal telescope, and I've even done photography with it (of the Sun [through a proper full aperture filter] and moon, and maybe a planet or two), but that's the exception as the type is designed for visual observing rather than photography. But don't forget the utility of a pair of binoculars. Some things are just better seen in binoculars than a telescope.

[BradNasset]

Mosquitoes - long sleeves and bug repellent. To keep the bug goo off your hands, and therefore off your equipment, I use the plastic gloves people use for painting or whatever. Easy.

He is what I generally used to do for a telescope: I just get one with all the accessories, use it for a bit, then wish I would have got a different one.

Take your time. I hated it when people always said 'depends what you want to do' but it is so true. I totally agree with the comment that an equatorial mount is a rough way to start. It is often called the hobby killer. Super great eventually, but not for a few years, maybe never. An 8 or 10 inch dob (go nuts, get the 10) with three eyepieces could keep you happy for a lifetime.

The astronomical League "Constellations- Northern Hemisphere" observing plan is great. As you fiddle with it, without even needing a telescope, search for what fun things to see in a particular constellation. Then go to Eagle Lake and find that object in a scope. The searching and conversations will easily lead you to the right scope for you.